Amendment to Rule 9 of the Rules of Procedure - Submitted by Katherine Hyde

And again you refuse to acknowledge your lies about elections. Which is the point I replied to. You know you’ve been caught in a lie and are frantically trying to spin it away by shifting to another issue. Let’s settle this one first.

As a reminder, if it’s too hard to scroll up, here’s what you said:

“Second, no member of the Board of Trustees or the Nominating Committee faced an opponent in their elections. This has been going on for almost a decade. “I don’t care who does the voting, as long as I get to do the nominating,” said Boss Tweet of Tamany Hall. Apparently, we agree with him. Our supposed democratic elections have become appointments. That is not democracy.”

I look forward to your apology about our recent history with contested elections. There’s abundant proof that indeed, four members of the NomCom faced an opponent in their election last year, and two members of the Board did in 2022.

And note I am on many things. I am not on the Commission. I am not on the Board. The only thing I can speak with expertise on is the NomCom. And you’re just flat out lying about us, refuse to apologize or acknowledge it, and I’m tired of it.

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Hi Steve, I think you have some other facts wrong here.

You said:
“Amendment 52 is a perfect example. The delegates voted to remove the words “repair harm and damaged relationships” in the INTERDEPENDENCE value. Both the Study Commission and the UUA Board chose to ignore the vote of the delegates and left the words in the final version of the value. There were other options they could have chosen. But they did not. That is not democratic.”

Amendment 52, and the discussion about it, can easily be viewed in this same discuss.uua.org platform, here: Amendment 52 to Article II - Proposed by John Millspaugh

The amendment you’re describing doesn’t exactly remove that language, so much as it does re-arrange some of the wording around repair and harm. The amendment process was always, transparently, known to be one in which the Study Commission would continue to work to draft and incorporate, but possibly modify further, all the amendments that passed at GA 2023, often in conversation and consultation with the proposers. Then, the final edited draft was released with plenty of time for the proposers of any of the amendments to organize and submit another amendment, if they still weren’t happy with it – obviously no one involved with the original amendment 52 were concerned enough with the text to want to do that, or if they did, they weren’t able to get enough support. Both scenarios reflect a functioning democratic process.

You can clearly see that the current language of Interdependence is different than the pre-amended, pre-2023 version, although it doesn’t exactly incorporate Amendment 52 as written. Again, that is according to the process that was transparently laid out. And there was ample opportunity to amend it further at this GA, an option which has not been utilized.

Hope that clarification of the Amendment process assuages some of your concerns about the democratic process in our denomination, now that you have fuller facts.

Hi AJ,

Thanks for replying. Here is my problem. If the delegates voted to eliminate the words “repair harm and damaged relationships” that is their decision and it should be respected as much as their vote to not approve an amendment is followed. There is no process that the Study Commission or Board has that allows them to overturn the vote of the delegates. Even the proposer of the Amendment has no recourse after a vote is taken. If his intent was not to omit that phrase he can’t just go back and say “oops I didn’t mean for it to be omitted.” Let’s correct if offline". Leaving that very phrase intact in the final revised version despite other changes is in direct contradiction to the delegate’s vote no matter how you slice it.

If that phrase was so important to the Study Commission and the Board and the proposer, the Board has the power to introduce an amendment to add the phrase back in which could then be voted on at GA24. Why did they not do that? Why did they take it upon themselves to ignore the delegates’ vote? Are you suggesting that they could similarly approve an amendment that the delegate’s voted down? Or slightly change it and call it approved? What’s the difference between that and what they did on Amendment 52?

You need to cool your jets, buddy. I leave it to you to show me there was a choice for each open position on either the Board or the Nominating Committee. Five people for four positions is not a choice. Two people for one position is. Who lost besides Dick Burkhart? And look at the election for the members of the Board at GA23. Can you tell me the names of the candidates that lost? Democracy is about giving people choices.

You need to apologize to me for calling me a liar. And for the rest of the folks on the Nominating Committee who may read this interchange, I am open to hearing an answer for why you do not nominate at least two people for each open position.

Yes. The candidates that lost at GA 22 were Rebecca Mattis and Beverly Seese. I literally said their names a few posts above.

Let’s under again go back to your words, not mine:

“Second, no member of the Board of Trustees or the Nominating Committee faced an opponent in their elections. This has been going on for almost a decade. “I don’t care who does the voting, as long as I get to do the nominating,” said Boss Tweet of Tamany Hall. Apparently, we agree with him. Our supposed democratic elections have become appointments. That is not democracy.”

This is not true.

You said “no member.” No means zero. This is just factually incorrect. Why is it so hard for you to admit you are not correct with this assertion?

It is either a lie or you just didn’t know better. I didn’t allow for the second option earlier. Did you just not know any better?

Also I was mulling on this earlier:

So you think the UUA nom com should have to nominate 2 people per position. The bylaws clearly state they don’t have to do this. GA has given its instruction to all elected committees through the UUA bylaws. If the body of General Assembly wanted to change that, it could.

We are accountable to the will of general assembly. The general assembly hasn’t chosen to require it. The General Assembly has resoundingly endorsed nom com slates over candidates wanting to change the system as you describe.

We are not accountable to your individual will.

In fact, substituting your individual will for the will of general assembly would be horribly undemocratic, would it not?

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Again, that’s a gross oversimplification of what the amendment did. If you’d actually read the full amendment and the discussion that I linked to, you can plainly see that the intent was to maintain the idea of repairing harm and damaged relationships, and enhance its specificity by talking about exploitation – which you’ll note is in the current draft. By taking a more relational approach to democracy here, as opposed to a legalistic and written-word-is-king approach, the UUA, the study commission, and the amendment proposers were all able to engage a more theologically and relationally meaningful process that yielded an even more nuanced version at the end. When I see what language resulted from the process as I understand it, the conclusion I come to is that the inclusion of “exploitation” was more important to the amenders than the removal of “harm,” while the study commission probably thought it was important to maintain “harm,” and that the spirit of the amendment was upheld by including exploitation (along with some other changes, of course). Again, this was done in relationship with the proposers of Amendment 52, this wasn’t done arbitrarily or out of relationship.

“There is no process that the Study Commission or Board has that allows them to overturn the vote of the delegates.” – again, it’s not overturning the vote. The final proposal that came out last October was the result of a clearly communicated amendment process that always articulated that amendments wouldn’t simply be added verbatim (partly because there might have been conflicting or redundant amendments passed), and instead of the final work fo the A2SC would be to edit and incorporate the spirit of each amendment in consultation with the proposers – as far as I know, in most cases the adoption was pretty one-to-one verbatim, but 52 is an example of where a more relational approach led to a slightly different result (which, again, was entirely available to be amended further). All to say, there has been a pretty clear, straightforward, and relational process outlined from the start, that has been followed.

“If his intent was not to omit that phrase he can’t just go back and say “oops I didn’t mean for it to be omitted.”” – actually he can, and it isn’t even a case of “going back” – it’s clear from the discuss.uua.org thread what the rationale and concerns were behind the amendment, so you can clearly see why the final draft made choices like include “Exploitation” but retain “harm.”

“Leaving that very phrase intact in the final revised version despite other changes is in direct contradiction to the delegate’s vote no matter how you slice it.” – Nope. I was a delegate in 2023, and I voted with the full understanding that the A2SC would work with proposers to massage amendments as needed. I can understand the confusion if you didn’t realize that was what the process was when you voted, but that’s now been clarified. And again, if you were following the process closely you’d have seen the difference in the final draft, and would have had ample time to rally 15 congregations to update the language and remove “harm” if it felt that important to you. Similar to Tim’s questions on other topics… if this was a major concern for you Steve, why didn’t you do that?

“Are you suggesting that they could similarly approve an amendment that the delegate’s voted down? Or slightly change it and call it approved? What’s the difference between that and what they did on Amendment 52?” – 1) no, because the process (as I recall it) was that they would work to incorporate the spirit of any amendments that passed. 2) again no, it would have to have passed to be considered. 3) The difference is A) the amendment did pass, it wouldn’t make any sense to consider the spirit of an amendment that failed to garner the required votes at GA 2023 and B) Relationship – these changes were done in relationship and in conversation with the people who proposed them.

I really want to invite you, Steve, to consider that the democratic processes that we use in the context of a congregation or a religious association do not need to be the same kinds used in our country’s government in order to be “democratic.” In fact, it’s really good that they aren’t.

It sounds like you have a strongly different viewpoint on what our democratic processes should be, though, and that in of itself is fine. But I’d encourage you to put your energy not toward decrying the duly voted upon processes of the association, but rather towards engaging that process – if you feel strongly that there must be two candidates for each position, see if there are enough others who agree with you in your congregation and 15 or so others to get a bylaw amendment process going. If you can’t do that, I sympathize with your situation but would ask you to consider the possibility that the issue isn’t a conspiracy against democracy, but just a democracy functioning wherein you have an extremely minority opinion. I get that that’s tough – but it doesn’t mean the UUA isn’t following the will of majority of the delegates of its congregations.

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Thanks for mulling. I knew of other candidates but that is not my point. My point is when a given position has only one candidate it is not an election. It is an appointment. Occasionally, when all else fails, this can be acceptable. The delegates approve the appointment. But when it becomes the norm, and we call it democracy, that is where I object.

It is a sorry state of affairs for our country and our democratic religion that something as basic as this would have to be spelled out in bylaws. Elections should have 2 or more candidates for each position or they should not be called elections. And if the delegates to GA are so comfortable with the nominations put forth by the Nominating Committee, then why bother with having petition candidates or even taking the time at GA to vote? Just merely tell everyone, here are the new folks for the Board and the Nominating Committee. Do you see anything wrong with that picture?

This isn’t just about me. There are plenty of other UUs who see things the way I do.

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Thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive answer. But to tell you the truth, it scares me.

You have noble intentions but it involves an “in group” making decisions and then rationalizing them. You say that “the UUA, the study commission and the amendment proposers were all able to engage in a more theologically and relationally meaningful process”. That sounds nice but you forgot to involve the DELEGATES. Like it or not and for whatever misguided reasons the delegates might have had, they voted specifically to remove the words “repair harm and damaged relationships.” Maybe they did not properly divine the “spirit” of the amendment. That doesn’t matter. The only thing that counts is their vote.

Everything that you say happened could have been done with a new amendment proposed by the Board in consultation with the study commission and the proposer to be voted on at GA24. That would have been the way to properly incorporate the “spirit” of the amendment into a democratic process. You have not explained WHY that was not done.

Perhaps delegates could have gone back and read the discussion on Amendment 52. It’s a moot point. Discuss.org is not GA and the discussion is not a vote at GA. The responsibility of ensuring the delegates have a proper understanding of the spirit or intent of the Amendment belongs to the proposer. It is not up to me or anyone else to monitor the discussion and compare the final draft to the original proposal. It is not up to me to rally 15 congregations to check the updated language. I expected along with many other delegates that the words “repair harm and damaged relationships” would NOT appear in the final version. Yet, there they are.

Thanks for the invitation to consider the democratic process. I will consider it. But I ask you to consider what you wrote. You have just illustrated how an oligarchy works. When we believe that a small group can divine the spirit of the written word and contradict a majority vote of delegates representing the people, no matter how noble or theologically meaningful the small group’s intent is, we are in big trouble not just as a religion but as a country for we are opening the door to interpretations and rule by a small group. Democracy is rule by the people. Democracy is tough. But it has proven better than all other forms of government. Perhaps UU once had it but it sure looks like to me that we are losing it. It’s up to the leaders of tomorrow to not take the easy road and rationalize their actions to get their wish, but to take the proper road and let the people decide. That is democracy.

Again we go back to your quote:

“Second, no member of the Board of Trustees or the Nominating Committee faced an opponent in their elections. This has been going on for almost a decade. “I don’t care who does the voting, as long as I get to do the nominating,” said Boss Tweet of Tamany Hall. Apparently, we agree with him. Our supposed democratic elections have become appointments. That is not democracy.”

You to no surprise keep ducking accountability for your words. These words have been proven false. Where is your apology and owning up to your incorrect words? Why should we believe anything you say when you refuse to acknowledge when you’ve been proven factually wrong?

And if so many people believe like you do, like you seem to think:
-Why did the protest board candidates lose 90-10 two years ago.
-why did the protest nom com lose 70-30 last year.
-why hasn’t this silent majority come together to introduce a bylaw to make it happen instead of complaining we aren’t substituting your will for what general assembly has told the nom com to do?

Tim, I will agree that my statement was a generalization. It is true that 5 people ran for 4 open positions on the Nominating Committee at GA23. However, in my way of looking at it, only one of the candidates faced an opponent. I don’t know which one.

For the positions on the UUA Board of Trustees, there were 3 candidates for 3 open positions. You can continue to call that an election, but I see it as an appointment. The vote by the delegates should be considered an endorsement of the appointments, but not called an election. The only choice they were give was to either approve or disapprove the candidate(s). To ensure that the elected persons represent the diverse interests and perspectives of the UU population the number of candidates should be double or triple the number of open positions.

Because delegates do not get to choose between two or more candidates for one position, it becomes possible for a given way of thinking to prevail and over time this can lead to a leadership potentially not representative of the UU population. In a diverse religion like ours this is a concern.

It was not a generalization. It was a lie that has proven to be factually incorrect. It has been proven incorrect more years than not.

And you knew it was factually incorrect. You said you already knew who the candidates who lost were in a post two posts ago.

You still haven’t apologized for willingly and intentionally lying about the Nominating Committee and recent elections.

Why should we believe other things you claim? What else are you “over generalizing” aka lying about?

And why do you feel you have to lie about me and the Nominating Committee to make your point?

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Our congregation, WHUUF, Portland, OR, voted against the revised A2 by a margin of 2/3 no, 1/3 yes, after two forums on the proposed changes. There seems to be no way to register such congregational views in the A2 discussion at GA.

You sir, are way out of line. You need to stop accusing me of lying. What I said was not factually incorrect. With 5 people vying for 4 positions. Only one faced an opponent. Three did not. Those are facts. You refuse to engage in a discussion. This one is on you, buddy. And this conversation is over.

Thank you Tim for your continued participation in difficult conversations. I experience some of the comments some white UUs make around democracy and their false facts as harmful racist and sexist rhetoric and it can be painful and exhausting especially as a queer woman of color to stay in these spaces.

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Yes it is factually incorrect. And yes it is an intentional lie, by your own words.

Your claim, your words not mine friend:

“Second, no member of the Board of Trustees or the Nominating Committee faced an opponent in their elections.”

This has been proven factually incorrect by taking two seconds to research.

You later say, in your own words, "I knew of other candidates but that is not my point."

You said NO member has faced an opponent. And yet you knew they have. How is that not an intentional lie?

I’m only using your words.

I’m not engaging in a conversation with an admitted liar who is trying to spin facts to support a false narrative. When you apologize for those lies, then sure.

Ok Tim. No member of the Board of Trustees faced an opponent in their election in GA23. Only one member of the Nominating Committee faced an opponent in their election at GA23. Those are FACTS. They are either true or they are false. I say they are true. If you can prove them false, I will admit to being wrong, but I will not admit to being a liar. BIG DIFFERENCE.

This Amendment didn’t receive enough support to be considered during General Assembly and this topic is being closed so delegates can focus on the business topics being considered next week.